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TOPIC: Cliff Height Estimations at PIA207023


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RE: Cliff Height Estimations at PIA207023
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Macten, hello. Have been looking at the material on Cliff ( height ) Estimations, and decided to send out a study-set on some additional thoughts on the matter. I'm no scientist or professor or nothing .. but just had a few ideas for consideration. Cheers / -Morbius



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You raise a good point about the distance/scale. Even tho the horizon calculation is correct the scale could be off. It could be somewhat closer making the cliff about 1/3? shorter than my last estimate of 50 to 60 meters. Say 30 to 40. I believe the lens is eqitable. the one in the scale pic is the one used on the curiosity so the same maker is probably used? I was trying to begin to make some type of system for other photos as well but this would not work without the true horizon being visible. I know that photograpic rangefinders use focus distance for thier calculations but the rovers cameras are infinity focus except for the one on the arm. (or so we are told by JPL) Also another fact I dont remember if I mentioned is that the curiosity mast camera will not focus on anything closer than 2 meters away. I am not sure about the oppy camera.That might come in handy somehow. I will do some more googling tnite to see if there is any other method to solve this riddle.

In the meantime have a beer, Ill be taking a shot of good ole American Whiskey.

Cheers !

 



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Macten .. hello. 

-Mars is half earth's size .. should the distance/horizon/curvature-line then require some adjustments or be a factor in our estimations ... just a thought.

-again, is the 'lens' or pic obtained equatable, or is, plus or minus, to a human-eye/perception of the ' data '?? For example, in a movie or TV pic of people, buildings, vehicles, scenes and horizons are never, or seldom I guess, as would appear if you were standing and looking at the same scene in person?

It would seem the approaches used, and results obtained, are both pivotal on a reasonably good or thought out approach. I don't agree, or unnessarily dispute some of these official 'findings', but it seems I always read it as 'a fact' .. without any referrences .. so have the perogative and incentive to reconsider and question these somewhat ( with some amazing backlash and echo's 'how dare you' lingering in the air).

A few items of relevance/referrence .. you might find time to explore here. Before IR/Radar/Lazer,etc., in WW I/II there were 'RangeFinders'. The Germans had some that were truly electro/mechanical/optical(Zeiss) wonders of engineering. Also, try a peek at 'distance/measurements-calculations' .. which is somewhat into the math stuff though, and may not be within your time schedule ?

My calculations, rough as they may seem, were base upon the soldier (6ft.) on a ramp or stairway just above the Pharoah Statue, and additionally now, the human-figures found at the base of the cliff. The rough graph/diagram I presented I am shure you are well aware of.

It seems we are trying to figure a ' distance/height, etc.' from a 2-dimensional base ( pic ), which should, properly I suppose, be a 3-dimensional equation. Now the question is ... is there a potential extrapolation or methodolgy to do this? If we can rationalize, and simplify some ' factor ' .. I believe there is good odds ( -and that's where the odd get even/ha )  the ' problem ' can be resolved within acceptable tolerances.

It may be, that in your exampled ' 15 ft.(house) at xxx(ft./mtrs.) can be juxtapositioned or shifted along an equally known setting and position, as the cliff, and, after some ratio adjustments, we may arrive at a reasonably accurate ( 1 pixel = 1 ft. in example ) figure for true height? . Might search for or need a computer program with a recticule gradation with an absolute/ variable-zoom accounting for results? As well, one to refocus/adjust for various lens types, etc.? By side by side matching with basic zoom in/out adjustments to arrive at some, tenable, say the mentioned 1 pix = 1 ft. ratio/1:1.? Just some thoughts you may like to pick over .. or not.

I pursue this for 2 basic reasons Mac. One, by somehow or way, we are getting a handle on this particular spot/site, we may indeed be onto a 'system' or process whereby it may indeed readily take and be applicable to most other sites and views ... thus an accurate, or more accurate interpretation thereof. This is worth working on and would be a signficant breakthrough in aiding our research. Secondly, and more important, to me, I wrote some time ago, that I percieved your qualities of astuteness and determination evidenced .. and because of this would gladly be of any assistance I could. We can all bring our best thoughts and training to focus on the ' problem/s ' we encounter in our studies here, and need stand shoulder to shoulder when encountering downright opposition and attempts to discourage further investigation.

I know we're not all MIT grads with a stack of degrees ... and if not we shoud keep our mouths shut, stand-down, and docily accept our humble place. But I don't think so, and am entitled to say what I feel may be of some merit too. Ok Mac, that's about it for now, am sorry for the delay in posting, as well for rambling on a bit to much. Will be briefer next posting. And you know .. I believe your insights and developed approaches are competent, reliable, and ... executeable, and may yet turn the tide in this perplexing Cliff-Height problem after all.  smile  / -M                                                      

-try techinst.com

-by the way .. got a pic through last night (?? )! /

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Yes this is on level ground at the height stated 2 meters for curiosity or 1.7 approx for opportunity. I am trying to find the specs for verticle but if you have distance you can estimate verticle.  Take the houses for example at 1k meters approx 15 feet high and you get an idea.

Just as an "eyeball" comparison between the "calibrated" pic and the cliff I would put it at 75 to 100 feet.  There is no way that is 20 feet.  But untill I get more data to support that conjecture that is all it is. Conjecture. Here are the pics side by side. I say the cliff is 200+ meters away. Consider that you are on the rim of a crater on a flat plane. Just look at the top of the cliff or plane to estimate distance. And remember that the horizon is 3500 meters away.

Another way I just found is to take the angle, for example if you are 50 meters from something that is 50 meters high you will see the top at 45 degrees, so at 200m distance if the cliff was 100m tall  it would be 22.5 degrees down. It actually looks like about 10 to 15 degrees (to me) which would put it at 50 or 60 m.

cpic001x.jpg

 

And Morbius your browser is the icon you double click to get on to the internet. Internet explorer or Firefox or google chrome ect.. all of these have a tool that blocks windows from "popping up" and annoying you but if the settings are wrong they will block all other applications and windows from appearing on your screen.  If you changed any settings recently try to remember what they were and look at them again.  I know this stuff happens to me all the time.



-- Edited by Macten on Tuesday 9th of April 2013 09:48:38 PM

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-this is on level ground or from a raised elevation ?

-what are the specs to determine verticle along this line of sight ?

-it is approximately of human-height, but is it equatable to human-eye ' sight ' ( lens size, FL/configuration, etc.)

-when ' returned ' ... what 'processing ' has occurred before this ( as ' data ' ) has a ' public release '.

-some few of many unknowns Mac, but a competent piece of research nonetheless .. good work on 'to be continued..'/ -M

**********************************************

still trying to get this stupid pic-posting solved .. anyways  confuse .

*****************************************

 

 

still trying



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Mars
- Diameter: 6780 kilometers
- Horizon Distance: 3395 meters at 1.7 meters elevation (nominal human eye level)
Elevation of mastcam for Curiosity is 2 meters  estimated approximate horizon 3500 meters.
Elevation of pancam for Opportunity is approx 1.6 to 1.8 meters. (nominal human eye level) could not find detailed specs.
 Mastcam-100 images, both taken with the Bayer color filters. Left image shows the single image RGB capability. Right image shows the uniform spectral response in the IR as viewed by the Bayer filters.
 
mastcam4b.jpg
 
I am making the assumption that the scale applied to the left image is relatively accurate and that graduations could be applied using the horizon (with no interfering mountains or other topography) at 3500 meters. Also to note: the Mastcam will not focus on any object closer than 2 meters away from it.
http://msl-scicorner.jpl.nasa.gov
 
To be continued........
 


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Macten ... thanks for answering ... I don't even know what a ' browser ' is ' pop-up'windows? I will find someone to walk me through this idiocy ... but it may be a mini-program has been installed that blocks any posting .. it has already occured when trying to post on MarsAnomalies .. MarsRock's place .. so I am denied access there .. please keep in touch as there's bound to be some answer/s or way out of this perplexing dillemna?? thanks/ -M



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Haven't been on in a little while, not ignoring anyone.  I dont seem to be having any problems (yet) posting pics. I just push the attach files button and the file upload window pops up. Maybe thats it .  Do you have a browser that does not allow pop up windows?

 

Test pic. Test only

PIA16453c.jpg

 



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I see ... and understand 250+ members . I guess you wouldn't even give me the time of day .. thanks anyway./M



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Hello Macten .. I don't think we need get high blood pressure and ulcers over this, how about we add up the three estimates and divide by three and go for a beer?!! What I really need help on is I can't figure out this new way to get pics on the site and it's driving me ( more ) bonkers. I wish someone would be patient and go through the numbers/procedures with me. I had the old way figured out fine , but now I'm pressing all the buttons and eveerything .. but nothing happens ? Anyways, good to hear from you again / -M



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So after all this discussion is there a consensus on how high the cliff is? Morbis says 100, The Watcher says 20 and Marsrocks states 50. I ran across this type of conjecture in another thread recently and it remains unanswered also.  There must be some way, some formula by pixel size or something to tell.  Any ideas anyone?

 

And to the Watcher I say stop the holier than thou attitude , I can understand Icemans intent just fine.



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Yeah, just like life we are going to disagree with some things and agree on the others. I have an interest which will be different from yours and my experiences in the paranormal mean that I fully accept the possibility of other life forms out there.

I do think that we need to keep in mind that we dont want to be party to a witch-hunt with the aliens being the witches. If they are indeed here and if they have been living on the Earth (either on land or under the sea), then they have mostly done so without much interference to us. Yes, there have been abductions without consent which shows a very disturbing nature and I dont think we can ever understand a being who does not have the same biology as we do.

Believing what I do, means that these beings could be any size, and could easily pop in and out of our dimensional space. So basically, as far as I can see - anything goes. Coupled with the fact that our science is really up-the-creek and with that the arrogancy of our scientists thinking they know best how the world works, I dont think anyone can say what is or what is not - although I do occasionally.

It just depends what planet you live on and whose rules you subscribe to.

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Well spoken AdventurnMechanic ... hopefully, we might draw many out of ' the box ' onto higher ground . thanks for the reply./   smile  -M

just thought to add .. I like the little doggie-picture .. so expressive 



-- Edited by Morbius on Sunday 7th of April 2013 04:59:18 AM

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Thanks so much Xenon , from you that is an encouraging reply and appreciated. Of a certainty we will speak again of many things. Cheers/ -Morbius



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Excellent detour in thread, the passionate posts of Xenon and Morbious are very inspiring to myself, and I'm sure to many others, on the verge of looking over the edge of the "box" we all may be tryin' to climb out of.  Some just little faster than others.Thank you.Peace!



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Morbius thank you for your frankness, observations and compliments, I welcome everyone who wants to take part on AA, it makes no difference what members backgrounds are, or what gender, race, age, or circumstances are, if a person can see the anomalies for what they are (whether real or processing artefacts or fakes) and is able to debate them openly (and freely) then Alien anomalies is a success, AA was not set up to be in competition with other sites, it was opened up for individuals to express opinions in a free and safe environment, over the years some members have come and gone who have either got the answers they wanted or stayed with us to share some more, some even went on to start up their own anomaly sites or chanels, and others whose job it is to destroy the community have faded away because at the end of the day our evidence and the way it is presented counteracts all of their arguments.

My dream is for all anomalous sites to become united as one voice, but in order to achieve this goal everyone has to place all differences and prejudice aside in order to be heard, there are people (Excluding J P Skipper) who make a fortune off the backs of other peoples discoveries  but have no intention of exposing the real truth of our findings, they lead people on an adventure that ends with nothing, no blame, no, consequence, no explanation, no disclosure, and yet people still buy their books and look to these people as examples of what the cause is about.

No one said our journey would be an easy one, AA has some of the greatest researchers I have ever known, all have skills and gifts different to one and other, you all come from different locations across the globe, and all are united as a community in the call for the truth based on the evidence you have discovered.

Morbius, it makes no difference to me what education, or qualification a person has, because real knowledge and understanding comes from experiences we learn in life not from the  certificates that states so, and from where I am sitting you and our other members are much more intelligent than those with the power to censure the truth.

Remember no one has to be alone at this site my email and PM are always open to members and visitors even if its just to talk about the weather



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Xenon et al . You have an old-fashioned way of posting ... which I enjoy. Few here remember the glamor, etiquette , elegance and eloquence of the 30's and 40's .. save perhaps as portraid in the old B & W films of those days. Each day, fewer and fewer of the Old Guard are left to pass on the insights and standards from this seemingly lost world. Time is passing and there is a new order appearing on stage to play its part and then, likewise, to depart. Over.the last months I have read and contemplated your, and Tw's confrontation/challenge in 'Skipper's Guestbook' , quite a few times in fact. At first I did not take a very good view of the writing and use of language. Rather brusk and unnecessarily authoratative. Mabee TW was military or head of a corporation and developed/used this style of communication ... I don't know really. But after 'getting used to', and a handle on this aspect, and seeing what was really being said, a string of honest and competent thoughts seemed to be emerging. He indeed makes, or has some reasonable and perceptive points to offer ... no matter how poorly the presentation appears. Now who am I to make any comment on such matters I know.

I am near 70 now, using glasses, have an intermittant 11" laptop and an 8th-grade education. Yea, you can go check that out any which way you want to. I live in a 8' X 20' poor apt. Mom is gone, Dad is gone, my dearest ladyfriend died 8-years ago, and my beloved cat Hercules was poisoned ... I am alone. I like to post .. to put pictures and comments on the boards ... I know I'm not to welcome or wanted at AA, but that goes with the territory I guess. But you know, despite the opposition, I endure and persist ... perhaps a little too persistant at times, but you can take that as you may. I feel compelled to post and comment, to maintain at least part of the old values, and give or pass on some gleanings and encouragement to the present generation too.

I know it is part of human-nature to be contentious, and we have to be tolerant and patient, especially with the upcoming members. To be over-strict is an indulgence to be avoided. Now you Xenon have a certain class, an unmistakable elan, and in this I am certain. TW has a beligerant, a near forceful attitude and it shows, but he also has hopes for us to ... and tries hard to accomplsh this agenda. I feel I owe him resepect, as he did me a favour to bother straightening me out when I was getting somewhat out of control, even though I thought it was my old 'normal self'. I know I'm not 'educated', and can be downright irritating, obstinate, and ..frustrating I guess .. but I really meant and mean well for AA and  everybody belonging to this prestigeous site.

This brings another, but relate, point. I thought at joining this place needed a little zip and enthusiasm, and somehow deluded myself into thinking it was up to me to keep the place going, to spend all of many nights preparing posts, to get people interested, laughing, perplexed. So it seems .. in such wee hours .. I started to fatigue, no excuse I know, and post what now seems really crazy stuff. I see now I was mistaken to take an unnecessary or required responsibiity like that. I am so sorry for some of that bs presented here. It was mixed with some good stuff though too, so it was not all wasted efforts.

Tears come in my eyes now, because my heart is in the writing. Not much to give I suppose .. but that which has to be said may be of some instruction and encouragement to us all ... stay human ... don't give up your birthright. We are human-beings and that's something I will not give up, that is my ... and your inheritance .. cherish it dearly. We pass through this world but once ... so let's be the best blessing we can to everyone and all.

We are at a plateau and turning-point in AA, an organization, a group, an assemblage of people ... whom are unique, are distinct and dedicated, professional or not. I had, from the beginning, considered this the finest group of people on earth, but that we lagged-behind and should be up there with those of renoun, Hoagland's site, Skipper's site, ATS, and more. But you know what my friends, I have been thinking and realizing of late ... we are up there ... in fact ahead of the pack  -that , in our league, there is no finer and more resourceful group on the entire planet. In anomaly searches and in human relations to each other we can do so well.

And so, it need only be seen ... what is lacking and can be readily fixed? It is reconcilliation, and respect, the old views, for the new, the new ..for the old. I agree with TW on many points, and I agree with you Xenon on just as many too. Let's take the best ... and discard the rest ..please.. if we don't all row together .. this boat won't get nowhere. It's a fair and good deal all around ...yes/  -Morbius



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It is easy for a thread to go off topic when personalities clash on assumptions, I agree it is important to look at all the available data and scientific reporting, it is also important to understand the available knowledge of the geology surrounding the anomalies, but having done so we are still left with the question "is the data reliable?", we know that data manipulation has taken place as we have seen it with our own eyes and reported it so, but we also have to realise that science has to base its understanding on the trust it places in the data, to go against it would and does alienate the scientist from the rest of the community (and their funding), thankfully we do not have the same restraints place upon us at this forum, and as such we are able to report the facts for what they are.

Please stop trying to know better than others and start working as a team, if one has knowledge and understanding then present your thoughts and ideas in a way that does not cause offence to others.



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It is not a scientific attitude to follow a predetermined ideas blindly and rejecting other options that have known
matches in an environment that is well known. Therefore, I agree with Morbius.



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TW ... why would anyone ever trust NASA's word as fact ,  when they continually lie about and obfuscate their pictures ? Are we to believe that , somehow , their efforts magically stop when it comes to data manipulation as well ?

Your invalid argument is based upon the assumption that their ' data ' is reliable ... but you know what ... I'm quite awake thank-you , but its time for you to grow-up and stop parroting NASA's divine/inspired edicts . I'll trust my own eyes ... not when and what NASA tells me to see through them ! No ill-will TW .. I kinda grown to respect you some, but I'm not blindly following a puppet-master into a purple sunset or over a cliff ./   -Morbius

still can't figure out about picture posting though .. oh well  smile cheers



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ICEMAN wrote:

The advantage of this platform is that there is no editorial, allowing people to go their own way because the final outcome
is not predetermined but is at the present unknown.


 ?HUH?



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One has not only an ability to perceive the world but an ability to alter one's perception of it; more simply, one can change things by the manner in which one looks at them.



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The advantage of this platform is that there is no editorial, allowing people to go their own way because the final outcome
is not predetermined but is at the present unknown.



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Morbius wrote:

The new format does allow pic uploads , but I don't see how ... any directions on this here ? / -M


 

Read the source link and accompanying info... Its simple. For you to be right you need to quantify your use of scale. 
Horse to water and such.  My last post on the matter.
Good luck and try to think clearly.

If you're using Nasa data, try to use all of it. Cherry picking and mixing in with non-scientific ideas with no true basis (in this case scale) kinda obliterates any ideas your trying to put forward.   
You ref point for scale is?
Your ref point for depth of field is?
Theres a lot more but I feel this will fall on deaf ears.  

Im away  now,
TW



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The new format does allow pic uploads , but I don't see how ... any directions on this here ? / -M



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THX's Q ... I know you meant well , but I'm still right . You see Q , you may need fresh air and greens ... but I believe in myself and what I see ... give it a try sometime . smile 

 



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Morbius .. using mini humanoids for scale is a little odd! Seriously!
Go look at the horses mouth (NASAs data). I do wonder what you are really expecting to find when basic analysis is away with the birds.

 This view of Victoria crater is looking north from "Duck Bay" towards the dramatic promontory called "Cape Verde." The dramatic cliff of layered rocks is about 50 meters (about 165 feet) away from the rover and is about 6 meters (about 20 feet) tall. The taller promontory beyond that is about 100 meters (about 325 feet) away, and the vista beyond that extends away for more than 400 meters (about 1300 feet) into the distance. This is an approximately true color rendering of images taken by the panoramic camera (Pancam) on NASA's Mars Exploration Rover Opportunity during the rover's 952nd sol, or Martian day, (Sept. 28, 2006) using the camera's 750-nanometer, 530-nanometer and 430-nanometer filters.
SOURCE: http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA08809

Image Credit:NASA/JPL/Cornell
Image Addition Date:

2006-10-06

Time to wake up Morbius.no

Cape verde is 20ft tall. Do you see any feature sticking out like a sore thumb towering 5x the height of Verde?
Extrapolate further.  Look at the typographical signature of Victoria's rim.
Read accompanying info. It cant be that hard?
No high elevations in relation to Verde. There could be smaller variations in elevations but nothing of the magnitude you describe.
As for the little people...  you are hypothesising with constructs that unfortunately are wrong before they can be grasped. Scale is important. 
TW

M



-- Edited by TheWatcher on Thursday 14th of March 2013 12:04:39 AM

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Like me, you really need to get out into the fresh air and eat more green leafy vegetables

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In previous posts I had estimated the height of this cliff, the ' Pharoah's Cliff ', at 100-feet, whereas Marsrocks states it is 50-feet vertically, and TW gives a 15-20-foot height. My estimate was based upon the height of the Pharoah's Statue ( 8-ft. from base to Crown ) which derived from the soldier above and to the left of him ( at 6 feet ). I could have added the following material earlier, but would be amiss if not now. I am presenting further human-figures on the Cliff, from a group near the very top ... to ones on the bottom slopes. Taken from these figures, it would seem the cliff is nearer the 100-foot mark, but that is just my opinion of course. Another item to note is the latest obfuscation-form present, an entire picture with pixillation (?). Funny as well, all the other cliffs are displaying smooth and rounded stone faces, whereas the Pharoah's Cliff is striated .. uniquely painted with stripes and jagged rocks, did they think I would miss that? The picture is nothing but a montage or collage of various obfuscation efforts that are, to me, not only easily diserned, but for the taxpayers cost and insult are quite unsettling to behold. Will speak further on this next post.            -Morbius



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