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TOPIC: Discussion - Are these animals or sentient beings?


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RE: Discussion - Are these animals or sentient beings?
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sorry, ignore my evil twins comments.

if it was sentient, it still looks dead.

that's all i can say about the pic.

but an interesting discussion here.



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gbull wrote:

that is OCD!

i always thought he was wierd!




What?

 

(And what does a dead individual have to do with sentience?)



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What if Pinnochio says that his nose will grow longer?


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maybe it's dead?





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qmantoo wrote:

Where does O'Brien say this? He has not posted for ages... maybe he is lurking? smile.gif




He's lurking.  Actually, he is just active via messages.



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What if Pinnochio says that his nose will grow longer?


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that is OCD!

i always thought he was wierd!

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Teaching the truth

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Science may have a bearing on it all if
a) telepathy can be taught
b) telepathy can be measured and quantified

I think you will find that there are some things which are not scientific - as we know or define science here. Some of these things belong in the realms of UFOs, spirits, religious happenings, and ESP kind-of stuff. I am sure there IS a science behind it all, but not what our scientists can determine at the moment in a 3D world.

1+1 = 2 only if you count using decimal, in binary it is 10. This means that it is all about communicating your 'assumptions' and is not in any way universal at all. For example, if your body is made from other elements not based on carbon like ours is, you can probably live quite comfortably in very cold places where our biology could not live.

About Darwin - you are talking about information, not knowledge . Yes the information is always out there and can be accessed if you know how, but not many people can access the various levels of information because their biology is not good enough to receive the correct information frequencies. The physical and spiritual biology is the key to being able to decode the information stored at various levels, if you do not have this biology, then you cannot access the information.

At the moment, Science is at a certain level which means that they believe they understand how things work. However, there is far more levels that science does not know about yet.

Your avatar is an image produced from certain data. If that data is erroneous, then your image will not be a good representation of the view we would see if we are in a spacecraft approaching Mars. The data you use, assumes that it is correct and has been interpreted correctly by the instruments which recorded it and assumes also that it has not been manipulated unduly after it was recorded. We cannot assume those things unfortunately. However, I agree, this is probably the best we have at the moment.

Saying that animals are not sentient also may make assumptions that 'sentience' is somehow "better" than non-senteince (if there is such phrases?) or that higher intelligence is "better" than lower. This is not necessarily the case since it is a subjective judgement made by us.



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Where does O'Brien say this? He has not posted for ages... maybe he is lurking? smile.gif

What we need to do is to find other angles and see if we can verify either that it IS a lighting effect or that it is not a lighting effect.
Put the site code into the search program (in my signature) and find other photos from the same site.
If you do not know the site, put the url of the official photo into the new file name decoder on the same website.

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Well, this topic should not be continued unless we prove that it is a creature, which is unlikely.  O'brien says it is an illusion caused by the lighting on a rock.

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What if Pinnochio says that his nose will grow longer?


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Anyway, after more thought, I should have put that just culture or a very spiritual religion can lead to understanding or at least using telepathy.  My reasoning was that culture would arise from beings being more social and living together, passing down information and developing beliefs.  One day, an individual who was already telepathic might be a member of a specific belief system but not know enough about telepathy to understand that their specific religious beliefs are somewhat irrelevant.  They may be passing down psychic abilities through both biology and teaching.  Science has nothing to do with it- it would only help them understand how and why it works the way it does.  I should have went over this, sorry for coming off as ignorant, which I was, and please ignore what I put there.

However, I do feel far more comfortable here where people are actually willing to debate with me, and not just argue without meaning.  I appreciate that.

Still, if I believe that ghosts exist- and I'm somewhat certain they do, given a certain experience of mine- then I will try to understand it in scientific terms.  Science actually means logic, so if we are being logical, then we are also being scientific, regardless of etiquette and "proper" science.  1 + 1 still equals 2, and that is universal.  Just because I don't come to that conclusion the exact same way you do in my thought process does not make me automatically wrong.  It is still using proper logic and assumptions, thus it is "scientific" in the traditional usage of the term.  If you have multiple pieces of evidence saying that, say, the sky on Mars is blue (and it is, we can prove that), then it is logically proven, and thus, scientifically proven, regardless of the fact we didn't publish it.  Just because Darwin didn't publish his theory of evolution before he was born did not make his theory untrue or illogical.  The evidence existed for it, thus someone else could have figured it out.  People may not have taken that person before him seriously because he wasn't following that "scientific method", but it did not make evolution false.  It could have still been logically and rationally explained, and thus it would have been science.

My avatar is a true-color photograph of Mars.  Just because I didn't test it three times, or go through the "scientific method" to say that does not make it untrue.  I can still say beyond reasonable doubt that it is true.


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What if Pinnochio says that his nose will grow longer?


Teaching the truth

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Oh... come on. Are you honestly going to say that what we do can be described as scientific? Most of it is opinions and assumptions. I am one of the first people to argue that there is plenty of evidence showing beings on other planets, but you cannot say that we follow the same methodologies as real "scientists" do? That is why I say "pseudo-scientific" becasue it is not what the science community would call "science". Yes, "Pseudo-scientific" and if it offends you - thats too bad. If you have been on other more science-based forums then you will know that they do not rate our 'science' very highly.

I gave an example of possible telekinesis and no, I do not think animals can do it, however, we just dont know what is out there at the moment, so limiting ourselves to narrow blinkered ideas of what is possible will only give us more of a shock when we find something that does not fit in with our model of the way the world SHOULD work (according to our assumptions). This method of assuming things is precisely why our scientists cannot appear to grasp the idea that there is more than they are being shown in the photos that NASA release.

It's what leads to technology and culture, and culture, philosophy, and science leads to telepathy.

There is absolutely no evidence to say culture philosophy and science lead to telepathy, so how do you link them? Mainly because we just do not have the instruments to measure telepathy, it is not really recognised as a real phenomena - at least not openly in the West. The Russians and Americans have done many secret experiments on all kinds of weird and wonderful phenomena but there is only a very short hop between telepathy, telekinesis, psychic abilities and mediumship. Then we start going into spirits, ghosts and all that kind of other-dimensional thing. Those subjects have their own followers just like our subject does, and some are even classed as religions such as the Spiritualist movement.



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Splitting and moving this here....Sorry, it did not copy very well.

moved from this thread here

Eaol
=====

I still say it looks more like an animal and less like a sentient being.
By the way, the little chihuahua-looking critter is an image artifact/illusion, but it is still hilarious to look at.

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What if Pinnochio says that his nose will grow longer?

qmantoo
======

Sentient beings have a particular 'look' ? The thing is, we just dont know what level of intelligence anything on another planet has, do we? It may look like an ant, but you do not need a large brain individually to be effective in your environment. (compare the Borg collective intelligence). Just because we equate brain size with intelligence here on Earth does not mean that it works that way everywhere, and on another track, there are various ghost-like images in photos which may suggest beings with a less-dense physiology too. However, that may be difficult to believe for some people.

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The Mars Rover Photo Utility Site
The Moon Photo Utility Site



Eaol
=====

However, we can't make jump to the conclusion that these are sentient just based on a picture or two.


Does anyone else see anything looking like this?



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What if Pinnochio says that his nose will grow longer?

qmantoo
======

No we cannot assume anything, but only gather evidence which suggests something and then draw out a pseudo-scientific hypothesis or theory.

We dont know what happens on Mars, we only know what happens on Earth as far as our experience goes. That means that what we think of as beings (animals/humans/whatever) may have totally different senses and skills to us. For example, they may be able to levitate rocks like the some people say the Egyptians did here on Earth, and in that case they could construct some of the things we see in the photos on Mars. Basically, we cannot tell their level of intelligence from what they look like on the outside.

It is safer for us to assume that all aliens are more intelligent than us until we find out differently.

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The Mars Rover Photo Utility Site
The Moon Photo Utility Site



Eaol
=====


Pseudo-scientific? So you don't want an actual theory, just a fake one? I want real work done, and it's things like that that lower our morale.

Sorry, it offends me at least.

Secondly, telekinesis is somewhat unrelated. We don't have telekinetic animals here on Earth. Why? Because the animals don't know how to do it. It requires a brain capable of complex decision making and abstract thought. So if I saw the little creature levitating rocks, I would already assume it was intelligent. But as I am trying to point out, we simply don't know. I personally doubt this individual is any more sentient than a sloth, only because it reminds me of one. I don't have enought evidence to prove or disprove that hypothesis, but it's an assumption I could potentially accept. By the way, evolution would dictate that the creature displayed here could be sentient but probably cannot manipulate its environment to the degree that we can. The mechanism just isn't there, unless it is extremely self-aware and is capable of telekinesis. However, note that creatures on Earth that are sentient usually start out by manipulating the environment physically. It's what leads to technology and culture, and culture, philosophy, and science leads to telepathy.
Also, most sentient extraterrestrials we know of (granted these are only the extremely advanced ones) happen to be humanoid. This is actually expected, if you understand a lot about evolution, but it also suggests that life is more familiar than the average person would think. It may not look like us, but it still abides by the same laws of physics, natural selection, etcetera.


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What if Pinnochio says that his nose will grow longer?



-- Edited by qmantoo on Monday 17th of January 2011 05:18:46 AM

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