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RE: Phoenix breaking up!
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Give me some time to look through the archives for some examples of structures.

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OK, so the obvious thing to do is to give them what they require to prove what we say. Find shelters that tiny beings use and show different examples of them.

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qmantoo wrote:

"...and they would say that the burden of proof remains with you.
Otherwise it is just wild speculation and crazy theories."

And so it would but we do not have to look very far. A degree of proof has already been posted on this forum.

qmantoo wrote:

"How would we prove life exists on Earth? Disregarding electronic communications such as TV & radio, how would we demonstrate it?"

Most beings with intelligence need some form of shelter. Therefore, looking for built structures would be one way of demonstrating that life exists, either on Earth or on Mars.

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...and they would say that the burden of proof remains with you.
Otherwise it is just wild speculation and crazy theories.

Dont get me wrong, I believe there are small beings on Mars too, perhaps not tiny, I dont know about that one yet, but certainly evidence could be collected to demonstrate evidence of civilisation there.

How would we prove life exists on Earth? Disregarding electronic communications such as TV & radio, how would we demonstrate it? This is the way to go I suspect... Maybe we need a project to determine the criteria and to find similar examples on both Earth and Mars?

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The lander is not breaking up. It's being demolished bit-by-bit.

I predicted at the end of the mission in November 2008 that within five years there would be nothing left of Phoenix. Two years have already passed and look at the state of the craft in the latest image.

If there was no active life where Phoenix landed we should be able to see the main body of the craft for many years to come. Also, due to the lack of oxygen in the atmosphere the amount of corrosion to the metal structure would be minimal. Therefore some other phenomenon is responsible for the disappearance of the craft. The most likely candidate is an army of the tiny sand people.

Referring to this valid theory, I would ask NASA to prove me incorrect.
 

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fruitnut1 wrote:

 

just to throw my two cents on the debate. Here is a sentence by NASA

"An image of Phoenix taken this month by the High Resolution Imaging Science Experiment, or HiRISE, camera on board the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter suggests the lander no longer casts shadows the way it did during its working"

Source :http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/news/phx20100524.html

You can see also fake pictures of the lander in the above article :

 

457705main_phoenix20100524-226.jpg

 

Similar pics also appeared replicated at a prestigious news web site outlet; In fact all photographs of the lander have been retouched to hide details, as the terrain does not correspond to the story we've been told

 

 

 

-- Frutty

 

 

 




Here we go again with LPT....(from that distance, why do they have to be little)

 

will you please post source on these two comparative images please



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Software the link is there. It's an article. lol. angered.gifangered.gifangered.gif

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sorry fruit...I thought that was a link to an article....ashamed.gif

Nasa's explanation.....
"The lander looks smaller, and only a portion of the difference can be explained by accumulation of dust on the lander, which makes its surfaces less distinguishable from surrounding ground"

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On a side note....communication is down too......Those little guys are busy.....lol

"Last week, NASA's Mars Odyssey orbiter flew over the Phoenix landing site 61 times during a final attempt to communicate with the lander. No transmission from the lander was detected. Phoenix also did not communicate during 150 flights in three earlier listening campaigns this year.
"




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Edit:

" I thought it was a link to some rubbish....as u had said "


disbelief.gifdisbelief.gifdisbelief.gifdisbelief.gifdisbelief.gifdisbelief.gifdisbelief.gif

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More likely, it is being dismantled too.

Lets be a little scientific - what is the best resolution we can get from any satellite orbiting Mars? I have seen figures of 12.5 metres per pixel, which would not show Phoenix apart from a blob, which is just about what we have.

Where is Phoenix's position with respect to where any winter snow falls on Mars? Do we have pictures of this area covered by snow from satellite images to support the theory that it was winter snow that caused the solar panel wings to fall off?

Etc, etc

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qmantoo wrote:

More likely, it is being dismantled too.

Lets be a little scientific - what is the best resolution we can get from any satellite orbiting Mars? I have seen figures of 12.5 metres per pixel, which would not show Phoenix apart from a blob, which is just about what we have.

Where is Phoenix's position with respect to where any winter snow falls on Mars? Do we have pictures of this area covered by snow from satellite images to support the theory that it was winter snow that caused the solar panel wings to fall off?

Etc, etc




Yes we have official pics of Phoenix covered by snow, an ordinary photoshop plastic wrap  effect though no

 

-- Frutty



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OBrien wrote,

"There's a lot more saturation on 1FBB0011 than on 1FBB0012 ... just when the exposure changes."

If your claim is true, can you explain by how many times the level has changed? 


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Timewarp wrote:

OBrien wrote,

"There's a lot more saturation on 1FBB0011 than on 1FBB0012 ... just when the exposure changes."

If your claim is true, can you explain by how many times the level has changed?



Sure. From 200 ms to 3 s. About 15x, just what the data says.

 



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Thank you OBrien, that's exactly what I calculated as shown in an earlier post.

<< The exposure time of 198.9mS is over 15x faster than the exposure time of 3034.5mS....... >>

The images (see link below) show that something unusual was affecting the instrument which would appear to be an unexplainable phenomenon. OBrien states that the saturation level changes for image 1FBB0012 due the change in exposure time. That is reasonable, but does not explain or account for the physical degradation of the mirror in the continuing sequence of images from 1FBB0012 to 1FBB0020 where the exposure time is constant (198.9 ms).

Even the images between 1FBB0001 and 1FBB0011, where a constant exposure time of 3034.5 ms was used, show that degradation of the mirror was taking place in the earlier part of the sequence.

When considering that what the camera captured is a true reflection of the series of events, it would be reasonable to assume that any visual data captured after the events showing a complete tell-tale assembly would have to have been retrieved from elsewhere to make it appear that the physical disappearance of the mirror was either a camera glitch or some other peculiarity.

If the images are studied carefully, viewers can see that the mirror is being 'eaten away' by something, but what could cause this type of destruction?

Could it possibly be the "little people" who were responsible for demolishing the tell-tale? if it was, this may also help to explain why, according to the latest image of Phoenix, some of the other main parts of the craft have apparently disappeared as well.

Viewers are asked to inspect the series of images which can be found at the following link.

http://www.met.tamu.edu/mars/141.html


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just to throw my two cents on the debate. Here is a sentence by NASA

"An image of Phoenix taken this month by the High Resolution Imaging Science Experiment, or HiRISE, camera on board the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter suggests the lander no longer casts shadows the way it did during its working"

Source :http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/news/phx20100524.html

You can see also fake pictures of the lander in the above article :

 

457705main_phoenix20100524-226.jpg

 

Similar pics also appeared replicated at a prestigious news web site outlet; In fact all photographs of the lander have been retouched to hide details, as the terrain does not correspond to the story we've been told

 

/download.spark?ID=760504&aBID=47797

 

-- Frutty

 

 



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What reason of concealment of the validity?confuse

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Какая причина сокрытия действительности?


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Well if you agree the photographs are fake (my position is not even on Mars pictures may look this horrendous), the main reason is that the purported landing site corresponds to a cliff inside the so called Heimdall crater.

A further clue. Heimdall, from the Scandinavian folklore was also known by a representation of a RAM

Here is another fake photograph of the lander (you can find it's official, I took the first I could find), I think this one wins the price of fakery in the series though.

 

phoenix-landing-site_01.jpg

 

-- Frutty



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fruitnut1 wrote:

just to throw my two cents on the debate. Here is a sentence by NASA

"An image of Phoenix taken this month by the High Resolution Imaging Science Experiment, or HiRISE, camera on board the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter suggests the lander no longer casts shadows the way it did during its working"

Source :http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/news/phx20100524.html



Timewarp suggests that something happened to the telltale structure between sol 141 and 151 of the mission.

The recent images and statements from two years later that Phoenix's outstretched solar panels collapsed as expected under the weight of a foot or two of frozen material during the intervening winter have no relevance to the original discussion.



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OBrien wrote:

 

fruitnut1 wrote:

just to throw my two cents on the debate. Here is a sentence by NASA

"An image of Phoenix taken this month by the High Resolution Imaging Science Experiment, or HiRISE, camera on board the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter suggests the lander no longer casts shadows the way it did during its working"

Source :http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/news/phx20100524.html



Timewarp suggests that something happened to the telltale structure between sol 141 and 151 of the mission.

The recent images and statements from two years later that Phoenix's outstretched solar panels collapsed as expected under the weight of a foot or two of frozen material during the intervening winter have no relevance to the original discussion.

 




ok. My cents were rejected. That's fine confuse

 

-- Frutty



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The video shows a series of images of the plumb bob and the tell-tale mirror onboard the Phoenix lander from two sols. only the series of images from one of the sols can be the original sequence.

The time of day the images were captured on sol 141 was just after midday local time. I believe the series of images from sol 141 to be the genuine sequence. The images for sols 150 and sol 151 are probably reproductions from earlier sols. That is why the tell-tale instrument appears to be back in its original condition on sol 151. We will never know the condition of the instrument after sol 151 or successive sols as no further images were made available for downloading.

If the images published by NASA/JPL are to be taken as true and no adjustments were made to the SSI's aperture or shutter speed, there are no other conditions to cause a 'wash-out' effect, so what we see in the video really happened. 

Assuming that no adjustment commands were sent to the electronics controlling the exposure parameters for the SSI, can anyone explain why we are able to observe in the video an anomalous physical disappearance of the plumb bob and the tell-tale mirror over a very short space of time?

The interesting follow on from this is what, or who, caused the anomalous disappearance of the mirror to take place?



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Timewarp wrote:

If the images published by NASA/JPL are to be taken as true and no adjustments were made to the SSI's aperture or shutter speed, there are no other conditions to cause a 'wash-out' effect, so what we see in the video really happened. 

Assuming that no adjustment commands were sent to the electronics controlling the exposure parameters for the SSI, can anyone explain why ...

 


Your assumptions are incorrect. The exposure times change for every single imaging sequence the SSI makes. I doubt you could find two that are the same. You can look up the exposure time from the telltale data set at

http://atmos.nmsu.edu/pdsd/archive/data/phx-m-tt-5-wind-vel-dir-v10/phxwnd_0001/DATA/

Choose a series of sols. The exposure time is in the second to last column, and you can cross reference the image number series (i.e., 1FBB for sol 141) to the telltale images series in http://www.met.tamu.edu/mars/directory.html

On sol 140, the images were taken at midday with exposure of 1.912 seconds. They look adequate. The washed out ones on sol 141 were taken with an exposure time of 3.034 seconds at about the same time of day.

The exposure time varies wildly. On sol 148, into mid afternoon, the exposure time is 0.117 seconds. On sol 151, close to sunrise, the exposure time is 7.14 seconds.


If you find someplace where images from previous sols are duplicated as being from later sol, please post your info. All the images are there, so if it's true you should be able to provide evidence for your claim.

 



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OBrien said. "Your assumptions are incorrect. The exposure times change for every single imaging sequence the SSI makes. I doubt you could find two that are the same."

Yes OBrien, I agree with what you are saying about different exposure times on different sols and the time of day. This can be confirmed with reference to the data table for the tell-tale.

But..... there would appear to be a big problem with the 1FBB image sequence on  sol 141.


hex          local time     exp' time

1FBB0000  -  12:12:37  -  193.8mS  -  The only image that displays different image quality.


1FBB0001  -  12:13:27  - 3034.5mS  -  change to exposure time.
to
1FBB0011  -  12:27:50  - 3034.5mS  -  17 images with this exposure time.


1FBB0012  -  12:28:44  -  198.9mS  -  change to exposure time.
to
1FBB0020  -  12:41:18  -  198.9mS  -  Last image of remaining 15 images.


From 1FBB0001 to 1FBB0020 (32 images), the quality of the images in the sequence stays constant, yet two different exposure times are used.


The exposure time of 198.9mS is over 15x faster than the exposure time of 3034.5mS and no noticeable change in quality can be observed. This would seem rather odd for the same lighting conditions and the short space of time between the first and last exposure.

According to the reference images for the 1FBB sequence, over a time span of 28mins 41secs the tell-tale assembly went from being complete to a state where it was practically non-existent. There is only one possible explanation as to how the instrument could have physically disappeared in such a short period of time.

It is also thought the images in this particular sequence are not in the correct order. Therefore, if the images in the sequence are to be believed, something unusual did happen to the tell-tale assembly and any subsequent sequence of images posted after this event had to have been retrieved from somewhere else. There is no other plausible explanation..... unless you know different.



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There's a lot more saturation on 1FBB0011 than on 1FBB0012 ... just when the exposure changes.


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Could parts of Spirit be slowly disappearing ?

Take a look at this video of something strange that happened in the last days of the Phoenix mission.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOjZHEQyf74


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Timewarp wrote:

Take a look at this video of something strange that happened in the last days of the Phoenix mission.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOjZHEQyf74




Nothing strange. The YouTube video shows two sols on which the images become more and more saturated because of lighting conditions, time of day, and exposure time.

Anyone who's ever worked with an imager that can saturate would have no trouble explaining how the image can wash out as shown.

You can easily look at all the images of the telltale on any given sol by going to

http://www.met.tamu.edu/mars/directory.html

The video also implies that after the second "disappearance" on sol 150 the program was shut down the next day. (There's also an implication that one disappearance happened on Mars and one on Earth because "There is only one mirror onboard Phoenix and one on another craft on Earth!") He neglects to show the images for the telltale on sol 151, which show it to be back in place and in fine working order.

There is no substance to this argument for an anomaly, just someone who doesn't understand how a camera works.



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evileye

Looks like it was done by some sort of laser-mounted scorpion tail. Doesn't seem too effective having to take 30 minutes to dissolve a couple pieces of metal, but you never know. I wonder what the other sensors were telling the lander.

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I believe there is a small race of **fictional** beings here on earth called "The Borrowers" that make use of unused items. Maybe that is based on the tiny martians? smile.gif

It is strange that there appears to be less than there was. Part of it could be the fact that the bright reflection in the first (left) image on the BBC article, shows it larger than it really is/was, but it's true, we cannot see much at all now. Could it be due to the angle of the sun when the photograph was taken ?

I wonder if we can locate the original images? I have sent an email to the BBC about the article, but do not hold out much hope in receiving an answer.

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In a BBC report: NASA says the "Phoenix Mars lander 'broken by ice'". (25 May 2010)

See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/science_and_environment/10151001.stm

Now, who is kidding who?

The main frame of the Phoenix lander, the landing gear and some of the onboard scientific instruments, are made of metal. Even a harsh Martian winter would not have any effect on these components as the craft was built to withstand the very low temperatures of the northern polar region.

My theory is that, near the end of the Phoenix mission during November 2008, the craft was invaded by the tiny 'people' who began a process of dismantling the lander starting from the top down with the 'tell-tale' instrument of the weather station. Please view the following video.

See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOjZHEQyf74

No comments were ever forthcoming from NASA about the event seen in the video.

If my theory is correct, it is highly possible that nothing much will be left of Phoenix within the next five years.

Will the same fate befall the two rovers when their operational life comes to an end?

In the future if NASA reports that the rovers are starting to disappear, it will be interesting to note whether the same explanation is used, that ice is responsible for their breakup.



__________________

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed; Second, it is violently opposed; Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

Arthur Schopenhauer

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